Today's Sunday NYT Travel Section had a feature article on Cuba...an interesting read
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Re: NY Times Article
Sat, December 3, 2005 - 1:32 AMYeah, I read it. It makes you wonder if people really believe when Castro dies that the country will revert to the way it was before the revolution, a playground for American tourists with casinos, ect. I doubt it, but who knows.
The article said that Cubans have to buy their food in outdoor markets with rotting vegetables and flies buzzing over bloody meat. My god, they do realize that Cuba is in latin America with a different culture or do they think of Cuba as a part of the U.S. and that it should act like it. -
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Unsu...
Re: NY Times Article
Sat, December 3, 2005 - 7:12 AMAnd what has Cuba become under the Castro dictatorship? A playground for Canadian and European frolickers and a sex tourism hot spot for married European men? And it has also become a thrid world armpit were the lowest and vilest of terrorists, (IRA,PLO, ETA) and revolutionaries have trained and sought refuge.
You people make it sound that Cuba was on par with the black hole of Calcutta. For your information, Cuba before the devolution was a vibrant and up and coming young nation on par with many Western industrialized nations. Havana was called the Paris of the Caribean and it was a bustling historic metropolis - only during the Castro regime did it become a dirt water town of rationing, electricity outages, and decay. -
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Unsu...
Re: NY Times Article
Sat, December 3, 2005 - 7:35 AMYour statement is kind of racist:
"My god, they do realize that Cuba is in latin America with a different culture or do they think of Cuba as a part of the U.S. and that it should act like it."
What? And Latin America is some kind of inferior culture to you? Do you think Cubans are some ignorant brown skin people who like to dance and sing all the time?
As a matter of fact, Cuba was the most Americanized nation in Latin America before Castro. And so what? What's wrong with that? Cuba under castro went from a growing Western nation to a post modern Byzantine Soviet Satellite and now it functions as a serfdom to the Castro family. For 47 years no less!
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Re: NY Times Article
Sat, December 3, 2005 - 9:35 PMCaemgen,
I think that you've been seeing too many horrible anti-Cuban movies like the Godfather II, or you've been reading too much Castroite propaganda. The reality is that pre-Castro Cuba was much more than just a playground for American tourists with casinos. Your statement is just as unfair as if I were to say that The USA is nothing more than a playground for Japanese businessmen, wealthy Arabs and Eurotrash!
If you look at the United Nations Statistical Yearbook for the 1950's, you will see that Cuba was actually one of the weathiest countries in Latin America with a per capita income second only to oil-rich Venezuela, but with a more even distribution of wealth. What's more, it had a per capita caloric intake that was equal to West Germany's and a a literacy rate of 80%. It's infant mortality was also the lowest in the region on par with Argentina that was not a poor country at the time.
Basically, all of the indicators pointed to a country that was far from being a Third World Hellhole as depicted by the Castroite propaganda.
And regarding your patronizing statement about Cuba being Latin America so the outdoor markets have rotting vegetables, flies, etc.. that is really insulting. This is the reality today because of Castro, but it's not a cultural trait. What are you implying that Cubans are slobs with filthy standards?
You really have a lot of preconceived notions... -
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Re: NY Times Article
Sun, December 4, 2005 - 11:48 AMHmmm.. A lot to address here.
First let me say, I don't have any agenda of my own. You won't here me taking quotes I read in the newspaper or any other literature "pro or against" out there about Cuba. When you guys, as well as others try to get your points across and then add things you've heard from the "bumper sticker, echo chamber, right-wing Miami groups such as "sex tourism", "a training ground for terrorists", "Castro is developing bio-weapons", ect., it makes me realize that you have no idea of reality in Cuba. The best one was "young Cuban children were forced to go to work camps," that was the Miami arguement to keep Elian in the states.
Now were focusing on Chavez, the right is trying to say he is a murderer? Come on, give me a break. Do you see how this works? You just tell some lies, put it out in the media, it gets repeated enough and people will believe it.
If Cuba was so perfect before the revolution, where did Castro come from? I don't love Castro or any thing like that, I'm not one of those people you see at those "freinds of Cuba groups" you see saying uncorrect statements such as "all" medicine is free in Cuba, there's no crime or racism in Cuba.
But you must stand back in awe at the statements coming from the far right, it's mostly BS with a little bit of truth mixed in. Yeah, you can go to Cuba and get laid fairly easy, so what. You can get laid in Mexico, prostitution is legal there, not in Cuba but Cuba is a sex tourism mecca? A foriener can't what down the street with a Cuban of the opposite sex without some problems from the athorities.
Another thing is these so called "filthy outdoor markets" are great for your information. The fruit and vegetables aren't rotting, they are fresher then what you can get in the states, picked that morning. And the meat is fresh too, killed that morning. Has anyone on this listed shopped in a outdoor Cuban market? And if so what was your experience. And if it was in Havana, I want to know what neighborhood and street it was on so I'll know if your telling the truth. Stop reading the right wing talking points, cause I'll call you on it. -
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Unsu...
Re: NY Times Article
Sun, December 4, 2005 - 12:19 PMYou people have to stop with the name-calling that every Cuban anti Castro exile is "right wing". Just because one is anti Castro or anti communist or anti Castro fascism doesn't make them right wing reactionaries. It makes them freedom loving - pro democracy seekers who want a Cuba with multi political parties and a free press. What's wrong with that? Castro lied to the Cuban people - he said he was going to establish a democracy and the people believed him. Sure, Batista was bad, but he did not last almost five decades like Castro and during Batista's time - no matter how much of a crook he was - no one escaped Cuba en mass like they have done since 1959. Cuban exiles or Cuban-Americans come in many stripes politically. My father was a democratic socialist in Cuba before the revolution - he saw the BS of Castro - he got out fast. I know so many Cubans who were socialists and communist party members before Castro - they - even in their wanting of utopia saw through Castro and recognized him for what he was - a power hungry fascist who now treats Cuba as his private serfdom.
Another very visible group that is Cuban American and not "right wing" by any means are Cuban exiles who are gay and lesbian. There is a very large gay and lesbian Cuban American community in Miami and in New York - these folks are mostly artists, writers, free thinkers, poets, architects, dancers - creative progressive people - but also doctors and other professionals - not conservative right wing bible thumpers like you call us - yet they too are against Castro and his homo phobic revolution.
So stop using the old talking points of the left.
Either you like Castro's repression or you stand up for human rights in Cuba. It's that simple.
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Re: NY Times Article
Sun, December 4, 2005 - 1:06 PMIf it is that simple as you say, why all the lies about "training grounds for terrorists", "bio-weapon development", "sex slavery", "child labor camps", the list goes on and on. Is it because the word communism doesn't carry much wait anymore?
I'm sorry if I said you were a right-winger, I don't know you. But when I hear those things you said, I just say to myself, what are these people thinking??
Does anyone else have anything to add to this disscussion?
Has anyone here shopped at an outdoor market in Cuba? Anyone??
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Re: NY Times Article
Sun, December 4, 2005 - 1:15 PMSo you think that it's unfounded to say that Cuba is a sex mecca? You think that its nothing more than the ranting of "the right winged Miami groups"? Those awful Miami Cubans! Always up to no good! Slandering and sullying poor Castro's reputation by talking about sex tourism in Cuba! Imagine that! What scoundrels!
I hate to burst your bubble, but, I got news for you! Have you ever heard about ECPAT? "End Child Prostitution in Asian Tourism – is a group of international organizations that works directly with UNICEF to end child prostitution and pornography. In 1996 they broadened their advocacy work to include North and South America, Africa and Europe but decided to keep their old acronym.
Their study, "Child Prostitution and Sex Tourism: Cuba" says, "In Cuba, the link between tourism and prostitution is perhaps more direct than in any other country that hosts sex tourists."
Carol Smolenski of ECPAT USA explained to me that a higher ratio of tourists are drawn to Cuba for prostitution – rather than for the beaches, the shopping or the cultural experience – than to any other country in the world. Meaning, if you're looking for a prostitute, look to Cuba first.
The study goes on to explain, "With mass tourism came large-scale effective demand for prostitution. Since many Cuban people are currently experiencing enormous economic hardship, it is not surprising that a supply of prostitutes has emerged to meet this demand." "
www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoi...20040212.html
So, as you see Caemgen, we aren't trying to get our points across by adding things that we heard from those awful "right-winged Miami groups" unless ECPAT is secretly run out of some secret offices in Miami?
To conclude, let me repeat what ECPAT says: the link between sex and tourism in Cuba is greater than any other country in the world and a higher ratio of tourists are drawn to Cuba for sex than any other country in the world! Sounds like ECPAT is trying to say that Cuba is the SEX MECCA OF THE WORLD! Wouldn't you say?
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Re: NY Times Article
Sat, December 10, 2005 - 1:43 PMI've shopped in one of those outdoor markets in havana. I don't remember the street names- but i was staying in habana vieja, so it was somewhere around there. It was great.
I loved cuba. The people, the culture, the music, the dance. I could go on for a while. I'm not necassarily for or against castro. I think it's definitely more complex than supporting castro or fighting for human rights. Looking at the U.S. gov't, which I know better, which is a democracy, i can say that citizens of the U.S. are treated better and can count on their human rights more than many countries. However, this same gov't turns around and takes human rights from people in other countries, and trains people to kill their own people, all in the name of democracy (capitalism).
Castro tried to work something out with the US gov't during the revolution, but the president refused to see him, and instead set up the embargo, because the US gov't was angry with cuba for not letting them make any more money with tourism, sugar plantations, etc.
Why has nobody mentioned this embargo? People blame castro for poverty in cuba, and yes, he does seem to be very inflexible, but something wasn't working back then, or people wouldn't have supported him. My stepdad, who's african american, went there in those days and was forever touched by the lack of racism he saw there. Yes, it's different now- racism always finds a way to break through.
And sex tourism. It goes on alot there. I also noticed that in cuba, people are generally more sexually open than people in the US, and less monogamous. I don't know if looking at women and men in cuba, (who have sex with tourists for money, gifts, etc) as victims of sex tourism is correct. When looking at the issue of sex tourism, it's important to look at the culture and what the mainstream beliefs about sex are in the culture.
So i guess what i'm trying to say is it ain't all black and white. And, yes, i've shopped in a market in cuba.
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